Sunday, 23 December 2018

A reddit sub-redddit intolerant of opposing views - r/transgenderau

About 3 months ago I had an exchange on the sub-reddit on a thread about this news story. The sub-reddit thread is here. UWA criticised for talk by transgender sceptic Quentin Van Meter UWA 

The thread was discussing the case of Quentin Van Meter being allowed to give a talk at the UWA (University of Western Australia). ABC (Australia) link 

I protested that Van Meter had a right to host a talk even if they or myself disagreed with what he said. I do not accept everything Van Meter says but I believe he has a right to be controversial and contrary all the same. The standard response was something like "hate speech is not free speech" yadda yadda yadda. Engaging in conversation was fruitless as expected. Closed minds are like that and I have noticed that trans activists are more closed minded than most and are VERY enthusiastic deplatformers. They will not tolerate ANY dissent AT ALL. There are exceptions of course like Blaire White but as a rule transactivism is very strident.

This was my first comment:
I have listened to Dr Quentin Van Meter on the Bettina Arndt YT channel and he is not at all "hateful'. It's cheating to shut someone down by making bald face claims that someone is a "hater". He has different opinions but that is not hate. If he is so obviously wrong then there is no harm in engagement with him and no harm in allowing him to speak. Let the public decide if his opinions have merit. Those who want to hear both sides should not be "nannied" "for their own good". That is such an elitist position. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R8_HavG7u9s
 That was the general theme of my discussion. After being called "a white cis guy" (because addressing the substance or lack thereof is not a habit of transactivists) I then posited that an outsider far from being disqualified has the advantage of an objective perspective that an insider does not have. This challenge to their thinking obviously means I must be a "troll" and a "loon". A reflex resort when one's position is challenged by disagreement.

The thread petered out and for 3 months that was that. A forgotten exchange. One of many I have engaged in on social media. But, suddenly 3 months latter I received this message.


Why 3 months? The r/transgenderau moderator or someone subscribed to it was smarting for 3 months. before banning me from making comments.

I took up the suggestion of contacting the moderator and we had a short exchange over a few days.



The exchange can be summarised as "you can sprout elsewhere", "I wouldn't shit on your carpet" and "this is not a political space". I challenged these excuses by 1) that wanting to deplatform a critic does indeed make the thread very political and 2) they were themselves "shitting" on the UWA carpet while protesting my criticism and 3) I questioned their commitment to allow critics, myself or others, to speak elsewhere when the evidence shows that transactivists have form for shutting down and deplatforming critics.

So with these points made what was the response? A concession? A reassessment of his position? Oh no, not at all. No, the response was to temporarily ban me from communicating with the moderator for 72 hours. The response to be questioned, challenged and having inconsistencies and contradictions pointed out is #Censorship.

  Below is the full exchange I had with the moderator.

[–]subreddit message via /r/transgenderau[M] sent
You have been banned from participating in r/transgenderau. You can still view and subscribe to r/transgenderau, but you won't be able to post or comment.
If you have a question regarding your ban, you can contact the moderator team for r/transgenderau by replying to this message.
Reminder from the Reddit staff: If you use another account to circumvent this subreddit ban, that will be considered a violation of the Content Policy and can result in your account being suspended from the site as a whole.
[–]to /r/transgenderau sent
I can think of Ralph Waldo Emerson who said "Never let me fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted." I think also of the words attributed to Voltaire "I disagree with everything you say but I will fight to the death for your right to say it". I am puzzled also by the 3 month period following my post? Why so long? Censors usually move faster.
[–]subreddit message via /r/transgenderau[M] sent
This guy you're supporting is deliberately obscuring the truth and dressing himself up as a credible clinician/scientist when it's just lies.
For an example of one of the ACP's views, they put forth a statement linking abortion to later breast cancer. The reasoning: Pregnancy protects against breast cancer in later life, therefore abortion causes breast cancer.
There's no truth being exposed here, the ACP are arguing in bad faith and being deliberately deceptive about their opinions being somehow science based.
[–]to /r/transgenderau sent
I am not supporting anyone at all. I do not agree with what the guy says but I do support his right to say it in any case. That supporting in any way (not necessarily his views but his right to express them) is enough to have a subscriber banned speaks of insecurity. Freedom of speech is not limited ONLY to those to speak a truth. This is the bed rock of democracy. I am sorry you are so easily triggered like a seismiclly reactive snowflake but if the only place you can feel safe and comfortable is in an echo chamber then I do not care to walk on egg shells and I do not care to share a space with the professionally victimatic. I prefer to live in a robust democracy of energetic exchange of different views. I feel sorry for you for you do not see yourself as who you really are. And why wait 3 months? If my position was not offensive enough then, why is it now?
[–]subreddit message via /r/transgenderau[M] sent
This ain't a space for political debate, it's a space for support and care for trans people. If you want a political debate go to a different sub.
Or alternately, can I come around to your house and shit on the carpet as some kind of political statement? No? But, free speech!
You can believe whatever you like, but this is not the space to expose those views. Declaring it as some kinda "right" is just indignant and stupid.
[–]to /r/transgenderau sent
All sounds very reasonable except there are a few problems here. First " If you want a political debate go to a different sub." This is fine except the desire to deplatform a speaker at some other venue, the UWA, not r/transgenderau. For a "space" which is not "political" this is a very political thread. My crime was not politics per say but only a particular type of politics you do not approve of. Second the assertion that you would not "shit on the carpet" in my house but you do exactly this at other venues like the UWA. You want to "shit" on other platforms. This betrays another truth. You imply that one has the right to express their views elsewhere but this is not true. You want to shut down any and all other venues and platform where views you do not approve are or could be expressed.
[–]subreddit message via /r/transgenderau[M] sent
I'm not entirely sure what you hope to achieve by this, but whatever it is it's not being achieved.
You can spout whatever bullshit you like (free speech) but you don't have the right to a platform, particularly in a safe space.
[–]to /r/transgenderau sent
I am struck by the appeal for "for space" while wanting to make unsafe outside space which opposes your position. This is a double standard. You want to deplatform others so your statement "You can sprout whatever bullshit...." is not actually a heart felt sentiment on your part.
 
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4 comments:

  1. Coweatsman29 January 2019 at 04:42

    I invited r/transgenderau moderator to comment on this blog and correct any misrepresentations. I received an email to the effect that it's alright for us to deny a safe space to those who oppose us. This is also an admission that the moderator of the sub-reddit was speaking in bad faith when said I or any critic is entitled to speak in another space. An open admission of double standards.

    "Private message from r/transgenderau • view

    re: My blog post on r/transgenderau

    "This is a safe space for trans* people, and supporting (including a platform to) a TERF or similar is evidently not allowed in a safe space."

    I replied:

    "What would you say to a TERF who says "trans are evidently not allowed a safe space"? They believe just as fervently in the justice of their cause as you believe in yours. At least one must be wrong and possibly both are wrong."

    ReplyDelete
  2. Coweatsman2 February 2019 at 19:42

    An update. A reply, apparently to sub-Reddit subscribers.

    "Don't feed the trolls ppl..."

    IOW if challenged on a position you can not answer just shout "TROLL".

    ReplyDelete
  3. Coweatsman11 February 2019 at 14:14

    The salt from r/transgenderau continues to flow. A rich vein of salt from this sub-Reddit trans community in danger of tanking salt futures. After weeks of nothing this appears in my inbox.

    ___

    [–]subreddit message via /r/transgenderau[M] sent 10 hours ago

    You have been temporarily muted from r/transgenderau. You will not be able to message the moderators of r/transgenderau for 72 hours.

    permalinkdeletereportblock subreddit
    ___

    So much smarting. Why bother? The muting lasts 72 hours but it is vanishingly unlikely that I would have been messaging the sub-Reddit mods in that time. I can only imagine I must have hit a sore spot, some doubt or uncertainty, some rubbing sensitivity they dare not face in themselves.

    ReplyDelete
  4. Coweatsman11 February 2019 at 15:12

    Today I submitted a post to r/RedditCensorship as follows.

    I had an exchange on the r/transgenderau sub-reddit about the deplatforming of Quentin van Meter, not defending his views (which I mostly disagree with) but defending his right to express them. The salt flowed freely. The exchange ended in a draw.

    3 months latter I was banned from making any more comments, something I was unlikely to be doing in any case. Why wait 3 months? After a bit of discussion with the mods I was muted from communicating with the mods for 72 hours. After some weeks and inviting them to comment or correct my blog post about the experience outof a sense of fairness I was muted for another 72 hour muting from mod interaction.

    ReplyDelete

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